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#26 7/24/2010 8:35 pm

C1nderella..xXx..Man
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From: Chicago
Registered: 7/24/2010
Posts: 361

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Okay. I misunderstood. Roun Robin of clan members from mult. clans would be a bit more difficult, but if a substantial amount of people from each clan participated in it then it would probably determine who the better clan is more easily.


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#27 7/24/2010 8:58 pm

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

exe.Cute wrote:

You can do a friendly war or a practice war etc but don't call it a war.  Just be like "hey do you guys want to get together and do some matches for practice?"  That way you don't have to bother organizing it and there's no confusion about whether it's a war or not.

My favorite rule that I'm disappointed nobody ever picked up is "no first turn attacks."  That means the on the very first turn of the first player, you can't do anything but move and build walls and platforms.  That way you get a chance to put up a wall to block grenades/rockets before your opponent gets a chance to hit you.  The player who goes second is free to attack on their first move.  It's irrelevant for the big levels but it stops Void rockets and I think makes Island less boring.

I think we've covered the friendly war topic pretty well. What we've boiled it down to is that it is not an "official, record-able war". Therefore, it does not count, the rules are simply laid out beforehand, and there is no confusion to whether or not it is for "keeps".

As for the "no first turn attacks" - Winning is the point of the game, I've said this once and I figure I'll have to say it a lot more. However you go about winning is up to you. The game is usually interesting no matter what, and if you take the game so serious so that you absolutely must win every time, you have no life big_smile. We should not put bars on the game itself, it makes it look like we're trying to rig it in our favor.

Island will always be boring, no matter what we try to do. When I face an opponent and I am on right, I'm usually down to a 4v6 when I put a wall up. There's nothing we can do about autokills and first move attacks. Void will also be homosexual, ALWAYS. And Cano will almost be in favor of left side. There's just no changing these.

As for your Round Robin idea, that really should be up to the clans to decide if they want to put all of their members forward. Also, we work around our random schedules, I play around my work, school and social schedule. So scheduling something is typically a problem, especially since we have international players, like Lucius (he's italian, but does he live in italy?, or ShuffleFreak (Aussie). Time Zones are a bitch to get around as well, especially when school starts up. So, I think that scheduling and the Round Robin concept should be left up to the clans to pool their members together and create themselves.

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#28 7/24/2010 9:03 pm

C1nderella..xXx..Man
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From: Chicago
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Posts: 361

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Earlier I agreed with Exe.cute's idea of "no first turn attacks" and now that I think about it I agree with you. With me being a 3 sport athlete I understand winning is what matters and I don't care how I do so. So I guess if someone believes that noob rocketing and using auto nades is what they need to do to be successful then more power to them. And you are right. Time zones are freaking impossible to work around and with the summer drawing to an end there would be no point to even try to set something like this up.

Sidenote: Negative i didnt realize you were Zero from AK. I just joined a few weeks ago.


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#29 7/24/2010 10:41 pm

Twinfan
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From: Gotham
Registered: 11/17/2008
Posts: 6241

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Still negative, even if they do understand a noob rocket, i just think it's a bit ridiculous to rocket so early, its just put in broader terms so any early rocket is stopped, i mean, most people know not to cluster their players or shoot rockets too early, but nonetheless, most people know not to murder others, but it is still against the law


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#30 7/24/2010 10:53 pm

exe.Cute
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From: South Carolina
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Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

That's like saying you might as well not ban Arceus from standard competitive pokemon play because winning is the goal and Arceus, being the pokemon with the highest stat total, is great at helping you win.  People impose rules on games to balance them for competition and "no first turn attacks" is hardly a complicated rule.  I don't see any reason why you should just accept things like Void rockets or the fact that whoever moves first on Island pretty much always wins when a simple rule could be the solution.


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#31 7/24/2010 11:58 pm

Slicknife
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Registered: 7/10/2010
Posts: 6603

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Rockets should not become available after 2 turns each.

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#32 7/25/2010 12:45 am

Pain
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Why are all the post like 2 paragraphs each :@ I'm half blind just to let you know =_=


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#33 7/25/2010 1:02 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

I see your points Exe and Twin. Yes, it is quite ridiculous to rocket rush, or use an auto grenade on the first turn. However, there isn't anything in the game to stop it. In my opinion, we should respect the gameplay whether we like it or not, and rocketing on the first turn is just an unfortunate part of it. Like it or not, it is a strategy. If we did go through with "No attacks on first turns", where would we go next? You can't camp on Volcano or Pit? Camping to me just pisses me off, especially when you're the one without cover. Besides, not that many people do it, since they let their pride get in the way of their gameplay. I find that to be stupid to lose b/c of the way you want to look, but hey, it's like high school.

Also, I think comparing murder to TWO is a bit out there. I understand the analogy. Banning Arceus from Pokemon battles for "fair gameplay" is just nerdy little brats complaining that they lose all the time since they don't have the years of experience like the pros do. Arceus was made for gameplay, wasn't he? Back in the day, we all fear Charizard, but we never banned it.

And yeah, I'm Zero. I don't recall who you are though (sorry). I quit AK about a month and a half ago, so I haven't paid any attention to who comes and goes.

UPDATE: Added in Rule 9- Best 2 out of 3 games rule.

Last edited by Negative000 (7/25/2010 1:36 am)

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#34 7/25/2010 1:35 am

exe.Cute
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Negative000 wrote:

Banning Arceus from Pokemon battles for "fair gameplay" is just nerdy little brats complaining that they lose all the time since they don't have the years of experience like the pros do. Arceus was made for gameplay, wasn't he? Back in the day, we all fear Charizard, but we never banned it.

That's actually a really dumb perspective.  In the first release of Magic the Gathering cards, there was one called the Black Lotus.  It was too powerful of a card, and the designers weren't really anticipating how powerful it was.  So now the Black Lotus is banned in standard play, and I don't see anyone complaining about that decision, because it allows people to construct decks that don't have the Black Lotus in them, which otherwise you really wouldn't be able to do.

In Pokemon you have tiers.  There are about 20 pokemon that are too powerful for standard play, which make up the ubers tier.  If you allow them, then all pokemon teams will consist primarily of these 20 pokemon.  Unfortunately, there are something like 200 fully evolved pokemon, and allowing ubers pokemon in standard play basically ruins all diversity the game has.  Arceus was DESIGNED to be too powerful.  Nintendo knew that he would be banned when they made him.  Nobody is arguing that he shouldn't be banned.

In fighting games, there's usually a character who, given players of equal skill, will beat all the other characters in the game.  That character tends to get banned from play.

So banning is standard, it's good for gameplay, it's good for variety, and it's not just about people bitching.  But TWO isn't a deck-building game, nor is it a fighting game.  Still, the same principle can apply.  A simple, explicit rule of something you can't do isn't the end of the world.

And it's not a slippery slope.  "You can't camp on Volcano" isn't a simple rule and would have a large effect on how the game goes.  "No first turn attacks" is simple and doesn't affect the game much.  It equalizes the sides, since one side gets to move first and the other side gets to attack first.  And there's good logic behind why it might be needed.


tl;dr - if you're going to dismiss an idea, give a justification for it that shows you actually know what you're talking about.  "I like doing autokills because it makes me feel skillful" would work.  Yours doesn't.


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#35 7/25/2010 1:53 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

First off, if you were trying to insult me, you did a pretty damn good job. But, I don't care since you're my friend. Implementing a rule such as "No first turn attacks" would have a HUGE impact on the way the game is played. I think you vastly underestimate how many people actually attack on the first turn, especially against tougher opponents. It may equalize the sides, but the point isn't to make everything completely fair. If the game was completely fair, the person who got the first turn would win about 99% of the time (I may be exaggerating a bit here, so don't attack me). My rebuttal to your logic is the fact that there isn't anything in the game to stop you, except people who dislike being attacked first turn. But that's the way things are, you should accept it instead of bitching and moaning that there are too many autos or noob shots (and this is directed at everyone). They were created for a reason - to win at all costs. Which is one of the points of TWO, is it not?

If you want justification, I'll say this: I don't give a shit if I'm attacked first turn. It's all a part of the game. If you feel skillful because you can hit a grenade that works every single time, you're a moron. Banning something may be good for variety, but who gives a shit if you can't have fun? Weapons are meant to defeat an opponent, and that's what you're trying to do here. I cannot reiterate that enough.

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#36 7/25/2010 2:13 am

exe.Cute
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Variety = fun.  It means not every match plays out the exact same way.

If the game was completely fair, the person who got the first turn would win exactly 50% of the time.  Losing a coin flip should not put you at a disadvantage in a game with no other random variables.

The problem with autokills is that they happen without you having a chance to move at all.  You lose the coin flip, and you're one down from the start of the game.  How is that a good thing for the game?  Maybe it isn't worth banning because it adds unneeded complexity, but the reason of "I'm a tough guy and I can handle getting hit on the first turn" is just bad logic.


While no longer active on these forums, I'm available by email if you'd like to talk to me.

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#37 7/25/2010 2:22 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

I'll make you a deal Exe. If your "No Attacks on the First Turn" Rule gets a lot of support, I'll swallow my pride and post it as a rule. I will also apologize for having bad logic. I don't expect anything in return, since I know you will never agree to my terms.

I completely understand what you're trying to prevent. I agree that, yes autokills are annoying in a way, but I disagree in saying that it is just how the game is played. I wouldn't say you're adding complexity. I don't look at myself as a "tough guy" either, simply because I can defeat my opponent who uses autokills. That is bad logic, I agree. But if that's what you got from my previous post, you must have misread it. You know perfectly well my point is to preserve the game and just play. Not impose rules and create tensions.

We'll see how everyone else takes this. big_smile

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#38 7/25/2010 3:37 am

RhineStone Cowboy
Member
Registered: 7/28/2008
Posts: 5609

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Exe, I see your point, and it makes sense, and it's the logical decision. But I also realize that it is unrealistic to expect all the players in all the clans to agree, or accept that logic. It's more realistic to expect that, or some other solution, in the new game.

I never understood why rockets could be frowned upon on the first turn, but grenades are completely acceptable. It's ridiculous. They are way way WAY more fair than instant grenades.

Last edited by RhineStone Cowboy (7/25/2010 3:38 am)


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#39 7/25/2010 4:27 am

Twinfan
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From: Gotham
Registered: 11/17/2008
Posts: 6241

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

There really is not a way to stop 1st turn grenade, whether autokills or just throws, so for now, just let the game go on like it has for over 2 years, because i can gurantee that the percentage of the person with 1st turn winning between 2 good players is under 60%. If you want to stop 1st turn attacks, than that simply means in TW3, the maps will have to be big enough where a 1st turn grenade won't reach.

Negative, i'm not comparing murder to two, it was just an analogy, and 1 that makes sense, but if you think it's too extreme, then here: Everyone knows not to piss in the street in broad daylight, but it is still against the law. smile


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I am no longer an active member of Twboards, but if you need--or want--to talk to me, I have left the option of sending an email available. If you abuse it or spam me or something, I will A) Promptly remove the email option, and B) Hunt you to the ends of the Earth. Choose wisely and I wish you all the best of luck...

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#40 7/25/2010 4:54 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

RhineStone Cowboy wrote:

But I also realize that it is unrealistic to expect all the players in all the clans to agree, or accept that logic.

I really don't see why.  It's not like it's asking a lot of people, and it's not like it's going to drastically change the game, even on Island.

Also, I hate the bigger maps.  They're so much more boring than the ones where you actually can hit your opponents with grenades at the start and they play so much differently since you spend most of the game moving into your opponent's attack range.  Bigger maps discourage the feeling of "time is running out" which is kind of crucial in all strategy games.


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#41 7/25/2010 5:02 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Don't worry about it Twin, lol. I knew what you were saying and understood it completely. smile

I came to a solution in the shower. What if it was up to a leader to decide whether or not first turn attacks are acceptable or not? That way, clan leaders would agree on the conditions of that, and we would all be happy. Or, another solution would be to limit the rockets, as mentioned earlier. However, Rhine and Twin are right in saying that not many people would agree to, or follow, a "no first turn attack" policy.

A large map where grenades cannot reach on the first turn is preferred. That's what I would like to see in TW3, and that's also what I am tailoring my stage suggestions to (well, one of them...).

EDIT: Exe, you are actually asking a fairly large group to stop doing what they normally do and begin a new strategy. Perhaps we can really start this in TW3, since no one would know any autokill grenades anyway. That way, it just becomes a regular practice over time. big_smile

Last edited by Negative000 (7/25/2010 5:05 am)

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#42 7/25/2010 5:16 am

RhineStone Cowboy
Member
Registered: 7/28/2008
Posts: 5609

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

exe.Cute wrote:

RhineStone Cowboy wrote:

But I also realize that it is unrealistic to expect all the players in all the clans to agree, or accept that logic.

I really don't see why.  It's not like it's asking a lot of people, and it's not like it's going to drastically change the game, even on Island.

Also, I hate the bigger maps.  They're so much more boring than the ones where you actually can hit your opponents with grenades at the start and they play so much differently since you spend most of the game moving into your opponent's attack range.  Bigger maps discourage the feeling of "time is running out" which is kind of crucial in all strategy games.

I wasn't thinking bigger maps, I was thinking that could just be a feature in the new game, you just cant use weapons on your first turn, that or angles are taken out.


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#43 7/25/2010 5:24 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Honestly it really doesn't matter to me about "no first turn attacks" being in the ruleset.  But I think it's a great rule that balances things out nicely on some stages and I'd like to see some clans use it in wars.  Like when you start the war and you're like "no double jump, 4+ players," you could say "no double jump, 4+ players, no first turn attacks."  Obviously it's something for the clan leaders to decide.  Whether or not double jumps are allowed is something for the clan leaders to decide as well.  It's the same sort of thing.

And honestly, I can see no reason why anyone wouldn't like the rule, so after people play with it once or twice they'll realize how reasonable it is and then it could become standard.  It's not really about forcing anything on people, it's about giving them a good idea to use.  "No double jumps" goes without saying in wars, because it's general consensus.  At some point, it wasn't.  Again, it's the same sort of thing.

But in order for any of that to happen, clans are going to need to try it, and even after stating it here no clan is ever going to use the rule in a war, which is frustrating to me because the only way anyone's going to know how it plays out is if people try it.  And if everyone's so afraid of changing things up at all that they won't try it, then it will never see the light of day.


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#44 7/25/2010 5:29 am

primary foe
Member
From: Connecticut
Registered: 6/18/2008
Posts: 391

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Hopefully in the third installment, the maps will be tweaked enough so that first turn autokills are impossible. It would make the game more difficult and exciting.

For now, it is extremely unlikely that your rule would become a standard.

It may seem "honorable" to not use the rocket move when you are 1st on island. The truth is, if you get to go first on island, then the rocket trick is, simply, the best move you can make. The point of nearly any game is to win. To win, you should make the best moves you possibly can.

If an autokill is administered on the first turn, then it should be the victim's job to work around it.


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#45 7/25/2010 6:33 am

Kayga
Member
From: Republic of Dave
Registered: 4/7/2010
Posts: 1586

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Mother hubbard that is just an ungodly amount to read about such a boring subject, allow me to add to it.

A lot of games have situations that fit into two categories, happy fun time sh*ts and giggles mode, and competitive lets at least make an attempt to be serious mode. For pokemon, the fun time mode is when you go on your little adventure and use all the legendaries and screw strategy because its boring, for two its when you just go into a server challenge random people and fight how you want, oh yes it is possible to fight outside of war and recruiting. And for half ass serious mode, with pokemon its when you fight real people and for two its when one group fights another group. Now i don't know about you but i think the two should be separated in conduct and how things are carried out, now if you want to just have fun and skip and play, no rules just do it your own way well the game is more then happy to accommodate, but if you enjoy yourself a good competitive atmosphere where you can really prove who is better and have a satisfied feeling of working for a goal well then you have your wars where the neutral goal of it should be to give both players as equal a chance as feasibly possible so that who's the best can be decided, no bull, and to do that you need a set of rules and regulations to make that possible, if you dislike that then why are you warring, you should be playing in the rules free mode.

Now the big subject of matter here seems to be about first attacking and instant kill shots. Now these seem to be easily avoidable with a few simple rules, and again if you cant or dislike following rules then please enjoy the rule free mode the game provides. As for the fairness, if you can type me in the face that you don't that taking advantage of the fact that your going first in a way that gives you instant advantage without the opponent being able to do anything unbalances the game in any way, note i said unbalances, i did not ask if you were ok with it or neither of you mind or if you think your good enough to the extent that it doesn't matter because thats personal, again i say if you do not believe that unbalances the game in any way thus defeating neutral goal of having a completely even game relying purely on skill, then their is no problem and you can continue using these advantages or lack their of, but if you believe that these unbalance the game in however slight a way, then you have an easily fixable problem needing only a simple rule or two

Thats all i had to say in this thread so feel free to comment on what i said but don't comment to me personally because i probably wont check back to see it

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#46 7/25/2010 6:52 am

Mr.JoKeR
Member
From: Texas
Registered: 7/3/2010
Posts: 43

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

I agree with all of that but there should be a new rule about d/c's

alot of people are doing them when they miss shots or fall down due to any reason, so they close the page and say its a d/c

witch everyone knows the game wont automatically close if you fall down a spike in pit .__.

this has happen many times so just wondering if you guys can fit some sort of rule on that somewhere


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#47 7/25/2010 6:53 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Negative000 wrote:

(5) Disconnections are considered losses.


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#48 7/25/2010 7:06 am

Mr.JoKeR
Member
From: Texas
Registered: 7/3/2010
Posts: 43

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

exe.Cute wrote:

Negative000 wrote:

(5) Disconnections are considered losses.

5 thats waayy too much ._.


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#49 7/25/2010 7:29 am

RhineStone Cowboy
Member
Registered: 7/28/2008
Posts: 5609

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Joker, you did not read the rules did you?


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#50 7/25/2010 7:42 am

Mr.JoKeR
Member
From: Texas
Registered: 7/3/2010
Posts: 43

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

RhineStone Cowboy wrote:

Joker, you did not read the rules did you?

is that a rhetorical question?


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