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#51 7/25/2010 7:52 am

RhineStone Cowboy
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Registered: 7/28/2008
Posts: 5609

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

It is rhetorical, because it's very obvious you did not. The five in brackets refers to the fifth rule, not 5 DC's. If you had read the list, you would have noticed the trend. And you wouldn't have suggested a rule for DC's, if you had already read that one has been added. Read before you post in the future, please.


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#52 7/25/2010 4:48 pm

Twinfan
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From: Gotham
Registered: 11/17/2008
Posts: 6241

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

I don't really get why the 6th rule has to be in place, wars can be anywhere from 5 minutes to 150, why 90 specifically? Just seems unnecesary


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#53 7/25/2010 8:13 pm

exe.Cute
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

It seems like a reasonable amount of time for a real life commitment.  If you start a war you should be willing to dedicate 90 minutes to it, so if you have to leave in 45 minutes or something you shouldn't be warring and expecting someone to sub in for you when you leave.  Wars can last longer than 90 minutes, but I think it's a reasonable amount of time for people to dedicate to it, after which they should be free to substitute if they have to leave.  It's more about real life than the actual length of the wars, and it's an attempt to make people consider whether they have time to stick around for the entire war before they agree to participate.


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#54 7/25/2010 8:26 pm

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Back to Exe's Rule for a sec: I think we're at a compromise here, shall I put it as an Optional Rule? I believe that over time we would see a general trend in that direction, and I would like to see it in happen more in TW3 than in TWO. Since first turn attacking is something that many players already do in TWO, perhaps seeing how it affects the game will enlighten them to be able to accept a change in TW3.

As for 90 minutes, I think the rule is a little bit of a time constraint myself, but as Exe has said it's a pretty fair amount for a real life commitment. I will say that most wars end within 30 minutes, unless you have more than 4 people. I tend to finish 2-3 matches in about 15 minutes anyway, so 90 minutes is a huge time allotment for me. I don't think that you should be allowed to war if you think you might have to leave. If you're going to war, you should stick through it all, unless of course you have an emergency. In that case, clan leaders would have to agree upon a sub. If there is no agreement, I think the match should be voided out (which, if one team is winning would encourage them to make a compromise).

These rules are all about creating a standard so that there is less arguing and feelings of injustice amongst clans. People want to have fun on TWO, and most people would rather not argue with one another. We're trying to keep people from starting flame wars, trolling each other, arguing, and hacking each other.

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#55 7/25/2010 10:53 pm

exe.Cute
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Yeah, keep first turn attacks and any other gameplay-oriented rules as optional.  This is mostly about the war procedure itself, not specific gameplay rules, although those should be mentioned.  I think eventually we should set up a webs site with all this on it, although wait until we're finished before doing that.



Back to the round robins, if you need proof that round robin is better, read this.  Otherwise skip to the line.

Assume every player has a certain level of skill and the better player always wins:

Clan A: Dick, Jane, Spot, and Percival
Clan B: Anthony, Beatrix, Charlie, and Diana

Dick: 130
Jane: 120
Spot: 110
Percival: 100

Anthony: 125
Beatrix: 115
Charlie: 105
Diana: 95

Clan A is obviously the better clan.  See these clan matchups:

Dick vs Diana (130 vs 95, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Anthony (120 vs 125, Anthony wins) - Clan B gets a point
Spot vs Beatrix (110 vs 115, Beatrix wins) - Clan B gets a point
Percival vs Charlie (100 vs 105, Charlie wins) - Clan B gets a point

Clan B wins the war 3-1 by virtue of how the matchups were selected.


Now assume each player has a skill level and a strategy (paper, rock, or scissors).  Dominant strategies are x2 skill.

Dick: Rock
Jane: Scissors
Spot: Rock
Percival: Scissors

Anthony: Paper
Beatrix: Scissors
Charlie: Paper
Diana: Rock

Consider these matchups, which are organized more fairly with best vs best, etc:

Dick vs Anthony (130 vs 250, Anthony wins) - Clan B gets a point
Jane vs Beatrix (130 vs 125, Jane wins) - Clan A gets a point
Spot vs Charlie (110 vs 210, Charlie wins) - Clan B gets a point
Percival vs Diana (100 vs 190, Diana wins) - Clan B gets a point

Clan B wins the war 3-1.  But what if we did the original matchups instead?

Dick vs Diana (130 vs 95, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Anthony (240 vs 125, Anthony wins) - Clan A gets a point
Spot vs Beatrix (220 vs 115, Beatrix wins) - Clan A gets a point
Percival vs Charlie (200 vs 105, Percival wins) - Clan B gets a point

Now Clan A wins the war 3-1!  So what exactly do any of these clan wars tell us?  Not much of anything regarding which clan is better.

Now consider a round robin format:

Dick vs Anthony (130 vs 250, Anthony wins) - Clan B gets a point
Dick vs Beatrix (260 vs 115, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Dick vs Charlie (130 vs 210, Charlie wins) - Clan B gets a point
Dick vs Diana (130 vs 95, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point

Jane vs Anthony (240 vs 125, Jane wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Beatrix (120 vs 115, Jane wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Charlie (240 vs 105, Jane wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Diana (120 vs 190, Diana wins) - Clan B gets a point

Spot vs Anthony (110 vs 250, Anthony wins) - Clan B gets a point
Spot vs Beatrix (220 vs 115, Spot wins) - Clan A gets a point
Spot vs Charlie (110 vs 210, Charlie wins) - Clan B gets a point
Spot vs Diana (110 vs 95, Spot wins) - Clan A gets a point

Percival vs Anthony (200 vs 125, Percival wins) - Clan A gets a point
Percival vs Beatrix (100 vs 115, Beatrix wins) - Clan B gets a point
Percival vs Charlie (200 vs 105, Percival wins) - Clan A gets a point
Percival vs Diana (100 vs 190 , Diana wins) - Clan B gets a point

Final result?  Clan A wins the war 9-7.  Seeing as how Clan A is better and neither clan dominates the other strategywise, this is the logical outcome.

---

So round robin format is preferable, but is it feasible?  Even if each pairing only plays one match, a war will still take considerably longer to complete.

Last edited by exe.Cute (7/25/2010 11:31 pm)


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#56 7/25/2010 10:58 pm

Shadowken42
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From: New York
Registered: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4485
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Re: Standard Clan War Rules

exe.Cute wrote:

Dick vs Anthony (130 vs 250, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point
Dick vs Beatrix (260 vs 115, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Dick vs Charlie (130 vs 210, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point
Dick vs Diana (130 vs 95, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point

Jane vs Anthony (240 vs 125, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Beatrix (120 vs 115, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Charlie (240 vs 105, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Jane vs Diana (120 vs 190, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point

Spot vs Anthony (110 vs 250, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point
Spot vs Beatrix (220 vs 115, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Spot vs Charlie (110 vs 210, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point
Spot vs Diana (110 vs 95, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point

Percival vs Anthony (200 vs 125, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Percival vs Beatrix (100 vs 115, Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point
Percival vs Charlie (200 vs 105, Dick wins) - Clan A gets a point
Percival vs Diana (100 vs 190 , Dick wins) - Clan B gets a point

Dick must be a TWO god.


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#57 7/25/2010 11:01 pm

C1nderella..xXx..Man
Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 7/24/2010
Posts: 361

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

@Exe.Cute

Is it possible that each week we would just set all the round robin matches so that all the members of Clan A fight members from Clan B and so on so forth. This obviously wouldnt work if we had an odd number of clans participating unless each week one clan just sat out. Now would it work if like every sunday we put the matchups online and all matches were required to be completed by saturday night?


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#58 7/25/2010 11:30 pm

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Oh whoops I forgot to switch the winner names, lol.  I'll fix it.


That's an interesting thought, and it would work, but I don't like how it doesn't really contribute to team spirit.  I think clans could use the boost of "everyone is here in the same place right now, we're ready for the war because we knew it was coming, and we're going to do our best."  Scheduling might be a pain, but wars are supposed to be exciting, and having random people pop in to say "war?" really just doesn't do it for me, and the week-long schedule is even worse.

It might be possible to schedule some sort of grand clan tournament in that vein that takes place over the course of two or three weeks, but I don't think it suffices as a war.


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#59 7/26/2010 1:24 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Well, we could just leave the clan war formatting up to the leaders of the clan to decide the best match-ups possible. If they're stupid enough to put say (using exe's names) Dick vs Diane, let it be. It wouldn't necessarily show which clan is better, but instead it would show which clan either got luckier, or was smarter in choosing their battles.

I like the Round Robin idea, although I feel like the feasibility and given the time constraints we have already placed upon ourselves, would make the war more of a chore than a fun experience.  I say a "chore" directed towards the people who have to set up each week. For those people who just war, it would be a great experience since you don't have to face the same opponent each week. So, it ends up that Round Robin is a catch-22 here, its fun, but takes work for the people who are already working hard to keep the clan afloat.

Also, what happens when a clan unexpectedly dies, or there is no one on to war that day? Would that clan win by default, or would we just say "Well, no war for you today. You get to chill." I don't think that a week long time allotment is really the best way to go for this type of problem, or in general. If we can find a smoother, easier way to set it all up, I think this would be super-fair and a well organized way to go.

UPDATE: Updated the format of the list to make more readable. Also, added in optional rule, Rule 11, discussing the option of "No First Turn Attacking".

Last edited by Negative000 (7/26/2010 2:15 am)

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#60 7/26/2010 3:07 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Well a lot of times there's no way of knowing which of your opponents is the best match, or clans could intentionally lie (although none of them are smart enough to do that), so you could intentionally or unintentionally skew the war without the other clan knowing the difference.

I don't think it would be too much work to set up.  I mean it's just player n vs player n in the first round, then player n vs player n+1 in the second round, etc.  I don't know if a seasonal clan war schedule is feasible with all the regular clan death, but any war scheduled 2-3 days in advance should qualify for this sort of thing.


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#61 7/26/2010 3:08 am

C1nderella..xXx..Man
Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 7/24/2010
Posts: 361

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

The week long idea isn't really fun or feasable but its so hard to schedule around every1 that would be a part of this. I honestly don't know what the answer is. I guess if people wanted it to work bad enough they could compromise 30 min on the same day every week.


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#62 7/26/2010 3:37 am

Negative000
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From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

The problem with one of my ideas I had on the Original list was I put "Fair skill matchups... or Owner vs Owner", which isn't really fair at all. Seeing how many clans stack their members (having a few pro players as members), member vs member would sometimes mean a 60-40 player would be up against a 980-500 player. Clans used to be really bad about this. They were knowingly skewing the wars, intentionally lying, and making the best of it. Eh... but most people knew about this and set up wars semi-fairly. If one clan was smarter than the rest, they would win all the time. It's natural selection, in a way.

Working around schedules is tough, but not impossible. Like Cinder said, if they wanted to work at it, you could devote 90 minutes a day to war. If a clan unexpectedly dies (2-3 days is enough time to die btw), what would happen to the other clan?

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#63 7/26/2010 3:47 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

They don't fight?  I don't see where the confusion is.


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#64 7/26/2010 4:29 am

Mr.JoKeR
Member
From: Texas
Registered: 7/3/2010
Posts: 43

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

RhineStone Cowboy wrote:

It is rhetorical, because it's very obvious you did not. The five in brackets refers to the fifth rule, not 5 DC's. If you had read the list, you would have noticed the trend. And you wouldn't have suggested a rule for DC's, if you had already read that one has been added. Read before you post in the future, please.

ehh i like to brake the rules ^_^
it's not doing any harm to anyone but you ._.


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#65 7/26/2010 4:31 am

Negative000
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Eh... Nevermind about my stupid question. I don't care for an answer anyway. Joker, it's break*...

EDIT: I neglected the "Same Stage" Rule. This should be optional. If, in one set of matches, players get the same stage, they have the option to call a draw and choose another arrangement. This can be decided any time.

Also, did I ever put the 4+ w/ Random stage arrangement in the rules? Should that be an official rule?

Last edited by Negative000 (7/26/2010 4:38 am)

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#66 7/26/2010 4:36 am

Mr.JoKeR
Member
From: Texas
Registered: 7/3/2010
Posts: 43

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Negative000 wrote:

Eh... Nevermind about my stupid question. I don't care for an answer anyway. Joker, it's break*...

sowwy typo >.<


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#67 7/26/2010 4:53 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

4+ should go in "optional" as well.


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#68 7/26/2010 5:15 am

SNMbonecrusher33SNM
Member
Registered: 7/26/2010
Posts: 28

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

No substitutes in wars? Well, what if there are times when it's necessary for a clan member to sub in for another during war? I mean, there's always a possibility for that to happen. Generally, of course arrangements for who will be participating and who can't should be made... but what if a member has to leave unexpectedly?




Btw, I deleted my other Gmail account and made a new one only because I had subscribed to this one site I found interesting, however, later I decided I didn't want it's everyday inboxes to my account anymore. However, I couldn't find a way to unsubscribe.

Last edited by SNMbonecrusher33SNM (7/26/2010 5:16 am)

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#69 7/26/2010 5:35 am

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Well we've been saying for emergencies and whatever substitutes are fine, but generally it's preferred not to make them.  If you know you're going to have to leave but you don't know when, then you shouldn't join a war in the hopes that you won't have to leave in the middle of it.


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#70 7/26/2010 6:56 am

Shadowken42
Member
From: New York
Registered: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4485
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Planning doesn't really work since most people are like:

"Hey I'm bored. Let's go look for a war."
and not
"Hey I'm bored. Let's go schedule a war for another day."


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#71 7/26/2010 1:25 pm

exe.Cute
Member
From: South Carolina
Registered: 8/12/2008
Posts: 4634

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Well that's sort of why I want to have regular wars and "official" wars (needs a better name).  That way people can still war whenever they want, but then they still get a big war with another good clan that they're looking forward to.


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#72 7/26/2010 5:19 pm

C1nderella..xXx..Man
Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 7/24/2010
Posts: 361

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

SNMbonecrusher33SNM wrote:

No substitutes in wars? Well, what if there are times when it's necessary for a clan member to sub in for another during war? I mean, there's always a possibility for that to happen. Generally, of course arrangements for who will be participating and who can't should be made... but what if a member has to leave unexpectedly?




Btw, I deleted my other Gmail account and made a new one only because I had subscribed to this one site I found interesting, however, later I decided I didn't want it's everyday inboxes to my account anymore. However, I couldn't find a way to unsubscribe.

If you can't commit the time necesarry to finish a war you shouldn't be part of one. Obviously there are emergencies. My opinion is that each clan should pick one MEMBER as a sub for all positions (member mod owner) in case of emergencies. Some might think its unfair for a member to have to possible battle an owner. My answer to this then is to make sure all of your members can finish a war otherwise dont be a part of it.


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#73 7/26/2010 5:45 pm

Twinfan
Member
From: Gotham
Registered: 11/17/2008
Posts: 6241

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

For the "Same Stage" thing, if it occurs where you get the other side of the map, let's say you go from right void losing, but then you get left void, it must be played as normal. But if say you get right volcano, and you get right volcano again, that would be the specific case when asking for a draw. Also, i think with respect to this rule, the loser of that map should be the 1 who decides to or not to play on the same side of the same map again. (So if you get right volcano and lose, and then in game 3 it comes up again, it is solely up to you if you want to draw, if you request a draw, the other player must follow suit.

I also think 4+/random should be mandatory, just as glitching is completely illegal. Who wants a war to be decided by a 2-2 game?

90 minutes still, it just doesn't rub me the right way, how about this for time....10 minutes per series. For every number of series in the war, that is another 10 minutes that you need to pass before you say, sub, or whatever it is that is under discussion by you exe. So if its a 3-3 war, then you wait 30 minutes, 5-5, 50. I just think 90 is too long and unrelenting.

As far as scheduling wars in advance, i have 2 thoughts on that, 1, is that i completely agree with Ken, and that is how most wars are now. 2, is that every time a big, important scheduled war is made, the result on that night is always lackluster, 1 clan is always considerably more represented than the other, it always takes longer to set up because 1 side is trying to stall for someone to come, both chats are generally out of control, people are banned, messes are made....it just usually was never worth the trouble. A round robin would work well, but it would be just as bad if not worse as 1 of said "scheduled, mega, defining wars".


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I am no longer an active member of Twboards, but if you need--or want--to talk to me, I have left the option of sending an email available. If you abuse it or spam me or something, I will A) Promptly remove the email option, and B) Hunt you to the ends of the Earth. Choose wisely and I wish you all the best of luck...

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#74 7/26/2010 6:18 pm

Negative000
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Twin's idea for the Same Stage rule works. That is, if your opponent switches sides with you and you get the same map, you must play through. If you're on the same side, I think if the loser calls for a draw, the opponent must accept the draw offer.  Can anyone rephrase this so it can be easily read? big_smile

4+/random as optional or mandatory: Arguments for both sides? I think it should be mandatory, but the numbers can be optional. What I'm trying to say here is that you can choose 4, 5, or 6 players, but you have to be on a random stage. That should be down to the players though.

As for 90 minutes Twin, you don't have to fulfill all of the 90 minutes, its just a rough estimate to how long some wars are. A 3v3 war can take up to and hour and a half, if someone has to eat dinner or something. We're looking out for these little things that we can't always control, like parents. Lol. We're looking at a time frame instead of a waiting period, that way it's more definite.

I don't want to get in on the scheduling thing. Should be up to the clans to decide if they want to schedule things.

Last edited by Negative000 (7/26/2010 6:18 pm)

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#75 7/27/2010 1:44 am

Negative000
Member
From: Kentucky
Registered: 12/11/2008
Posts: 595
Website

Re: Standard Clan War Rules

Sulli, if you can't devote 90 minutes of time to a war, or even 30, you shouldn't be playing in that war. That's just common sense, we're not putting a time constraint on the war itself, just putting a rough time estimate and a time limit for any "emergency" substitutions. Players can draw out a match as long as they want, it'll only be a waste of their time.

As for the stage concessions, I don't like playing a stage twice. I won't complain that I had to play it twice, I just don't always think it's a fair judgement of another players skill. If you force me to play Volcano (my worst stage) twice, I'll lose both times, even to someone well below my skill level. Is that a proper representation of my skill? Not even close. It's luck of the draw, but it should also be a proper representation of one's skill on various levels.

The whole reason of these rules is to prevent bitching by either side. This is a positive for both sides.

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