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#26 1/6/2012 11:04 pm

CViper
Member
From: Salford, Greater Manchester
Registered: 8/8/2009
Posts: 8039

Re: pick axe glitch

User972302 wrote:

I believe Afro even pointed out that it wasn't something he was going to patch, even though he could, because it was working well.

You'll find that Afro has said he has decided not to patch anything in TWO so I don't see how this is relevant. Unless of course you are referring to him putting/not putting it in TW3 which wouldn't actually be patching.

We could argue all day about whether the community regards these things as cheating but neither of us can actually speak for the majority of people. I will say that you have spent more time in clans than I, just as I have spent more time out of clans than you. That is probably where the difference in opinions as to what constitutes as cheating comes from.

Last edited by CViper (1/6/2012 11:05 pm)


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#27 1/6/2012 11:12 pm

Slicknife
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Registered: 7/10/2010
Posts: 6608

Re: pick axe glitch

CViper wrote:

I will say that you have spent more time in clans than I, just as I have spent more time out of clans than you.

lmao lol

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#28 1/6/2012 11:48 pm

User972302
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From: I am 18 yrs. old
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Re: pick axe glitch

I was actually referring to something else. I thought for sure Afro addressed the shoot through walls problem directly, saying it was a good thing for the game. But I could be wrong, it's not worth arguing that since I don't even know for sure.

First of all, I don't think you've spent more time out of clans or in clans than I have. I think I have more experience with the game and the community entirely, but again that's not something we can really argue, like you said.

However, it isn't hard to argue that shooting through walls is so widely accepted that most people don't even think twice about it let alone call it a glitch. It's also easy to argue that most people have never seen the lag trick in use and would therefore jump to the conclusion that it is a form of hacking. Only a very small majority of TWO players is familiar with the trick, which is why a long time pro like Kai made this topic, having never encountered it before in his time playing TWO. That's saying something.

While we can't directly represent the majority of players, that doesn't mean certain things are very obvious, such as the fact that shooting through walls is only referred to as a "glitch" once people actually realize that what they've been doing for months is actually questionable. Most people start off shooting through walls since almost everyone does it. The same is not even nearly true of the lag trick so I think that's an unfair comparison.

That's the distinction that has to be made between what falls into the category of "cheating" and "fair." If almost everyone thinks something is fair, it's fair, regardless of whether it's a glitch. That's true of wall shoot and not true of the lag trick.


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#29 1/7/2012 1:57 am

Shrub
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From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Registered: 5/14/2009
Posts: 9155

Re: pick axe glitch

Since there aren't any rules, the definition of "cheating" is very broad. There are however, clan rules, and shooting through walls is acceptable by them, so I find it absurd to call that cheating by any definition.

This is why I've said in the past that shooting through walls is not a glitch or a cheat, but an exploit. It exploits the fact that the bullet shoots from the very end of the rifle, and the fact that the rifle itself is not a physical object in the game, and therefore can penetrate any surface. Calling it a bug or a glitch would imply that something in the code is at fault.

The trick discussed in this thread is much more sketchy, since it deals with abusing lag to give yourself a personal one-sided advantage. There isn't a defined rule stating it's illegal, but I think the fact that it's showing your opponent a screen which does not exist can be called cheating. It's a filthy tactic in my opinion, and shouldn't be allowed.


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#30 1/7/2012 2:36 am

Twinfan
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From: Gotham
Registered: 11/17/2008
Posts: 6241

Re: pick axe glitch

I have a question about this lag thing (I don't really even know what to call it). Does it help you to aim and land grenades more precisely? Or is the main problem with it abusing lag at all, whether beneficial or not.


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#31 1/7/2012 3:30 am

User972302
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From: I am 18 yrs. old
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Re: pick axe glitch

Twinfan wrote:

I have a question about this lag thing (I don't really even know what to call it). Does it help you to aim and land grenades more precisely? Or is the main problem with it abusing lag at all, whether beneficial or not.

It requires that you aim, then turn around facing the wrong direction, increase power, and then turn around again RIGHT before releasing power. This makes it harder to hit full sometimes, but it's really not too difficult once you get the hang of it. It makes it so your opponent can't see the path of your grenade, which is really helpful when you think about it, since they won't be able to prevent the same shot afterwards.


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TWO War Record: 163.5 - 42.5 (est. 50 matches missing) TW3 War Record: 114 - 45
Total War Record: 277.5 - 87.5 Notable Opponents

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#32 1/7/2012 3:41 am

Shrub
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From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Registered: 5/14/2009
Posts: 9155

Re: pick axe glitch

I believe it will also show their player facing the opposite direction, which could mess up a headshot.


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#33 1/7/2012 11:54 am

CViper
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From: Salford, Greater Manchester
Registered: 8/8/2009
Posts: 8039

Re: pick axe glitch

Shrub wrote:

Since there aren't any rules, the definition of "cheating" is very broad. There are however, clan rules, and shooting through walls is acceptable by them, so I find it absurd to call that cheating by any definition.

If someone isn't in a clan, how can they be expected to follow the rules that clans use just because a bunch that are in clans say they should? It makes no sense to force clan rules on everybody. Clan rules should be kept in clan matches and let ordinary players do their thing.


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#34 1/7/2012 6:33 pm

KoolAIDS
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From: St. Michaels, MD
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Re: pick axe glitch

I have to agree with CViper here, as long as trainers aren't involved...


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#35 1/7/2012 10:18 pm

User972302
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From: I am 18 yrs. old
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Re: pick axe glitch

I think this situation is comparable to test-taking in a classroom. There are a bunch of obvious ways to cheat on a test and a few others that are less common and more difficult. Among the more common ones are: copying off the smart kid's test, looking up answers on cell phone, writing important information on arms or hands before the test.
Among the less common or more difficult ones are: developing hand signals with classmates for answers, writing an in-depth cheat sheet beforehand and sticking it in a hidden crevice under desk, taking a bathroom break to meet a friend who has all the answers.

You get the point. All of those are considered "cheating" in a testing environment. Why? Because the general consensus is that they are unfair and so they enforced by some higher authority. If teachers simply decided it was O.K. to bring in an index card with as much information as you want before the test, that would no longer be cheating because it would no longer be considered unfair, and thus, wouldn't be enforced.

The same is true in TWO, but in a less obvious way, since we have no active higher authority who lays out our rules for us. There are common glitches--such as double jumps, floats, and teleports--for which there is a general consensus that deems them unfair. For this reason, numerous attempts at a higher authority have been created. Most notably, the clan war rules were created to establish the glitches as unfair, clans everywhere forbid them, and outside of clans, an unofficial mod system has been created that includes these glitches as ban worthy offenses. So you see these are not the same kind of higher authority as the in the classroom, where there is an institution governing and regulating test-taking and deciding for everyone what is cheating and what is not. But, what you've got to realize is that what many have attempted in TWO is something that approaches that higher authority and reflects the general consensus of the community.

Thus, what is enforced by these unofficial higher authorities is what we should consider "cheating," for all intents and purposes, in TWO. Shooting through walls is not cheating, but glitches such as double jumping and this here lag trick are.


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TWO War Record: 163.5 - 42.5 (est. 50 matches missing) TW3 War Record: 114 - 45
Total War Record: 277.5 - 87.5 Notable Opponents

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#36 1/7/2012 10:34 pm

CViper
Member
From: Salford, Greater Manchester
Registered: 8/8/2009
Posts: 8039

Re: pick axe glitch

School examinations are official though with most schools within a country following the same, strict standards. TWO has no official rules. It doesn't even have unofficial rules outside clans.

A better analogy would be an optional set of rules introduced by a group of schools that only half of schools in the country followed whilst the other half made up their own. If a teacher from one type of school moved to another type of school, it would be unfair for the students to change the way they've been doing things.

Last edited by CViper (1/7/2012 10:35 pm)


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#37 1/7/2012 10:44 pm

User972302
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From: I am 18 yrs. old
Registered: 1/14/2011
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Re: pick axe glitch

CViper wrote:

School examinations are official though with most schools within a country following the same, strict standards. TWO has no official rules. It doesn't even have unofficial rules outside clans.

The point I'm trying to make is that yes, there are no official rules in TWO that are enforced by a true high authority. But, there are unofficial rules that are widely accepted and followed inside and outside of clans, such as clan rules and the unofficial mod system. These unofficial authorities all seem to agree that glitching is unfair and is therefore a form of cheating, and they also agree that shooting through walls is not unfair and is therefore not a form of cheating. These rules reflect the general consensus and are enforced. So, even though they aren't official since Afro hasn't specifically appointed them (although he has acknowledged they exist and he has done nothing to change them), they are the closest things we have to an official set of rules and they impact the majority of the TWO community.


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TWO War Record: 163.5 - 42.5 (est. 50 matches missing) TW3 War Record: 114 - 45
Total War Record: 277.5 - 87.5 Notable Opponents

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#38 1/7/2012 10:48 pm

CViper
Member
From: Salford, Greater Manchester
Registered: 8/8/2009
Posts: 8039

Re: pick axe glitch

And I'm saying that a lot of people outside of clans do not follow clan rules. And then we get back to the fact that neither of us can prove either way.

The Mod System's rules do not reflect the general consensus.


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#39 1/7/2012 10:54 pm

User972302
Member
From: I am 18 yrs. old
Registered: 1/14/2011
Posts: 5590
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Re: pick axe glitch

All you have to do is create an account devoted solely to exploiting glitches to see for yourself that the majority of your opponents will accuse you of cheating no matter what lobby you're in, inside or outside of clans. You'll be shunned as an unfair player by whomever has already witnessed your ways. That's the clearest I can explain it.

And I never meant to say the mod system's rules are completely accepted, but nobody seems to have a problem with the parts that forbid unfair gameplay. Most of the controversy is over the fact that it's unofficial, but even those who offer such an argument often admit that, since there is an unofficial mod system, they're glad that it forbids unfair gameplay.


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TWO War Record: 163.5 - 42.5 (est. 50 matches missing) TW3 War Record: 114 - 45
Total War Record: 277.5 - 87.5 Notable Opponents

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